Thursday, December 11, 2008

Lies Christians Believe about $$$ - part 4

I warning you again, you may not want to read this. I've been talking about Lies Christians believe about money. So far we've discussed Lie #1: It's all ours, and Lie #2: God doesn't care how I spend my money. I think I'll end this series with a doozy, one that's sure to incite, anger and offend. Lie #3: The New Testament doesn't command to tithe so we don't have to do it.

This is harmful on many different levels. First, it also flows out of Lie #1. Second, I think it's a poor handling and understanding of both the Old and New Testament's teaching about money. Jesus did say this. And, there's teaching on generosity all throughout the New Testament. Plus, while there are Old Testament laws that are tossed out (food stuff being a big one), nowhere does the New Testament toss out tithing.

I could write a bunch more on this, but my buddy Vince does a better job. He did a series of posts on this very subject last week. You can read them here, here, here, here, here, and here. It's worth your time.

I'm not hopping to start up an argument with these posts. That's a waste of time, mine and yours. What I am hoping to do is to get all of us to handle God's money God's way. Tithing is a part of that. I also know that in no way, shape or form did I deal with all the lies that Christians believe about money, but this is all I have time to address right now.



At 2:53 PM, December 11, 2008 , Anonymous Jaimee said...

I don't want to argue either. Arguing is unproductive. Though reasoning together can be very beneficial to all parties involved don't you think?

I do not agree that the tithe is still in order. At least not in the manner commonly thought of, ie. as a modern day "temple tax." The temple of the Holy Spirit (God) is now each person and the entire ekklesia, not a building or an institution. Therefore I see our giving as a responsibility to support and help each person/ group of people, not to hold up a sort of man made Christian government just because we always have.

I feel it is treading in dangerous waters to invoke such verses as the one about Jesus not abolishing the law and the prophets. My reason for saying that is that it opens us up to large unchartered territory...

Just a for instance: The Sabbath. Yes, I said it. I would never ever ever tell anyone that since the N.T. did not "abolish" the Sabbath, each person is held to observing it as the Jews in the O.T. did. From sundown to sundown, Friday to Saturday... No buying or selling, no lighting of fire, etc, etc.

Now these things were not abolished. There was no specific command ridding us of the responsibility to rest. However, Jesus came to FULFILL (complete) such laws, to give meaning and life to such laws. So is it mandatory then that one observes the Sabbath? If one does, what does it mean? Does it have to be Friday-Saturday or can it be Sunday?

I won't answer those questions black-white for anyone else. My answer I guess would be to just keep following Jesus. I think that is a good answer for the tithing problem as well. It is obvious that giving is central to Jesus' life and ministry, and was carried on through the apostles and should be in our lives.

I don't notice anyone being commanded to tithe in the NT, however it has not necessarily been abolished either. Giving is commanded, and from the heart, and what I have purposed in my heart (decided on ahead of time). And knowing that the "temple" is no more a building or institution or government as it had been in the past, it would not make sense that my giving or "tithing" if you want to look at it that way, should go to support such a thing. To me, it would be more sensical that the money that God has entrusted to me should go to support God's people, to help with real tangible needs, and to further His kingdom. Now, personally I think this could be done in many different ways. And I will not negate the idea that tithing to a church can be one way of accomplishing some of these things. I do not feel (in most instances) that this is the most effective way however.

Like I said, I do not mean to be argumentative. But I have serious issues with a matter being decided to be God's way, when we have not dialogued about the heart of things. I think there are probably many other points of view aside from my own which can be considered reasonable and God-directed as well. I feel that the more points of view we can put together on a matter, the easier it is to see the big picture, God's heart for his people.

Thank you Jonathan for sharing your opinions in a public place like this. I so enjoy reading your blog and interacting to a point. You give us many things to think about!

At 3:28 PM, December 11, 2008 , Blogger pat gillen said...

Definitely doesn't make me angry... but this is where me and Vince differ slightly.

I completely LOVE his attitude and heart in the whole matter, but where we differ is in the law vs. grace category. My thoughts:
Jesus freed us from the law, so we are no longer bound to it. However, Vince has the right attitude... Jesus did not free us from the law so we could sin and do what we want - but that we could find JOY in obedience. Giving faithfully is ESSENTIAL in a growing believer -- it is impossible to grow and be faithful without giving.
The difference is that there is no 10% requirement offered in the NT. I had a Prof that put it this way: "We aren't bound by the law of 10%, we are now freed to give 100%!" :) The only thing I would differ on is that Vince says that faithful giving would NEVER be below 10%, whereas I tend to lean on a God of grace who freed us from the law - and would tend to say that for a faithful, seasoned believer this would be true... but the "law" standard of 10% is no longer "required" by God. Eph 2:8-9 among others remind us that it's not by works anymore, but faith.
So, I would expect, preach, and encourage 10%+ but would not (b/c Jesus does not) preach that God requires 10% or "the tithe"... we're now freed to give much more with a cheerful heart!

At 8:46 AM, December 12, 2008 , Anonymous Jaimee said...

"We aren't bound by the law of 10%, we are now freed to give 100%!"

I love this Pat!

That is so so true. Now we just need to show each other the grace of believing that each one is led by the Holy Spirit to give freely as He sees fit. It would be really cool if we could recognize that in our brothers and sisters. Thats just the kind of thing that binds us together as family and frees us to serve in the capacity the Lord has set for each of us and as the Body.

At 10:41 AM, December 12, 2008 , Blogger pat gillen said...

Thanks Jaimee, I'm diggin' the Sabbath connection too.

There was one instance where Jesus was speaking to a Pharisee who was acting prideful when Jesus said '... you give your tithe, and this you should do...', which is what most people say Jesus brought the tithe into the NT. It's not a command "per-say", but close enough for them. It was however directed toward a Jewish leader.

One thing I would add to the discussion is that Jesus never asked Jews to not be Jewish. In other words, he fulfilled the law - thus opening the gate for Gentiles to believe as well - but did not abolish it (as you said). Paul also encouraged Jewish people to still practice their faith, just knowing that they worship Jesus as Messiah. While they aren't bound by the law, it is still a part of who they are and they should reflect it. IMO

The issue becomes with the whole 'grafted in' thing... but Paul nor Jesus never commanded Gentiles to be Jewish (remember the whole forced circumcision on new believers thing?)... anyhow.

Good stuff, I would like to hear from Jonathan and others too!

At 12:50 PM, December 12, 2008 , Anonymous Jaimee said...

Look! It's a conversation! I'm told one of these things could go on for awhile, eventually revealing great truths and promoting good will toward each other... if others will chime in with their stories and thoughts... (hint hint)

I definitely agree with the idea that we are who we are as believers in the Messiah, right where we are--- culture and experience included. I think that's how we get so many beautiful and true representations of God here on earth.

I come from a varied background of nitpicking, truth-seeking, religiosity. Places and situations in which we were not allowed to be different, not accepted apart from the governmentally decided upon Truth. I am SO ENJOYING not being there anymore. I love to see Truth through peoples' experiences and ideas. I love that God is not about making sure we follow the right rules and that we're following them the right way anymore. I love the Law of the Spirit. It is amazing how the living God breathes that law right into our hearts and heads and causes things to come together and make sense.

So I guess I wandered from "the tithe"... No I don't agree with it. It doesn't bother me that people do it. I definitely feel bound to giving generously to support the people of God. I think Christians should feel free to give as the Holy Spirit directs, not as tradition or the church mandates. Is that too harsh?

Seriously, I wish I could speak with a southern accent. My account would sound so much sweeter! :)

At 1:20 PM, December 12, 2008 , Blogger Jonathan Everette said...

Now why do you want to drag me into this Pat? Oh, that's right. I started the discussion.

I love y'alls input and thoughts. I think dialog is important. Here are a few of my thoughts.

First, I'd love to do a series of posts on the Sabbath, but won't do that here.

Second, I also love what Pat said, "We aren't bound by the law of 10%, we are now freed to give 100%!" My only problem is I know very few people who give much of anything. We think we're generous when we give 2% (the average giving percentage of Christ followers in America). Honestly, most people just don't give squat. So where do we tell them to start? I'd love some suggestions on how to teach generosity and what kind of starting place to give people. And how can we be generous when we give less that 10%?

Here's another thought, feel free to rebuke me b/c I may be off. I don't just want to be a New Testament Christian. I want to be a Biblical Christian. And while this might open up a new can of worms, I think it's pretty clear that it's both/and not either/or. So I guess my question is, what do you do with the Old Testament commands that talk about the tithe? And come to think of it, I almost would go as far as to say that when Malachi is talking about the tithe, he's not even talking command, but principle. ie: If you trust God enough to handle your money his way then you invite him into your finances. This has proven true for me over and over. I've got stories, but not enough time to write them.

Also, I think that giving is an obedience issue, as is following Jesus in general. Jesus did ask, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, but you don't do what I say." I'd love to hear what you both think obendience's part is in the whole thing. For me it's a big part.

Really, I think it comes down to trust... as all discipleship does. Do we trust what God says about money. And while I do admit that churches aren't always the best stewards of money, does that negate the need to be obedient to a minimum standard. And wouldn't it be wise to stay away from those churches that can't be trusted with money and instead invest in those that can be trusted?

I'm looking forward to more comments. I wish I had more time!

Jaimee, I love the northerner! Please don't let out the southerner! I would agree that having tough discussions is what families do and am glad to have you and Allen in our family.

At 1:46 PM, December 12, 2008 , Blogger pat gillen said...

Alright Jonathan finally jumping in his own discussion! :)

I'll bite by throwing out a few of my thoughts:
Context, whenever reading Scripture, is HUGELY important. For instance, a friend of mine once said he didn't want children, to which another friend asked "what do you do with the command to 'be fruitful and multiply?!'" My response was simply, "It looks to me as Adam and Eve did a good job obeying that command!" The OT mentions all kinds of laws, should we then adhere to them as well as the tithe? What makes the tithe the 'only' thing from the law that we bring over. I think only by understanding and applying context can we truly be Biblical Christians.

On the other hand, I COMPLETELY agree 100% on everything you mentioned. 10% is an excellent place to start, to make a goal and even end up. If you're 80 and giving 10% away still faithfully, I believe that is excellent! (Let me add that my wife and I currently give more than 10%) The problem isn't giving the 'guide' of 10%, its in declaring that God requires it as law. I teach, encourage, and practice 10% - but not as bound by the law, but expressed through joy, grace and faithfulness.

I also think you're 100% correct that giving is an obedience and trust (faith) issue. I believe we should give, and be asked to give, sacrificially. We don't give leftovers with a smile on our face, we give joyfully even when we have little (the widow's mite rings a bell). So, I do believe it to be a necessary part of obedience and an act toward our own sanctification through discipleship.

Again, I think you can accomplish these things without abusing the Bible or misusing God's principles to attempt to guilt a bigger offering (not that it is used this way every time, but I have often seen it this way).

Let me throw out 2 examples that I'm not picking a side on, but just to do so:
1. Baptism. I grew up hearing "the first act of obedience after salvation". It could be semantics, but while obedience is an expected outcome of the believer, baptism isn't. While baptism is HUGELY important, symbolic, deep, and AN act of obedience... I don't think that you are unfaithful to God until you get baptized (if that makes sense).
2. Calvinists and missions. I know people who call themselves calvinists that could care less about missions because "If God is going to save them, He'll do it..." However, guys like Piper and others realize that sharing our faith with others is birthed out of a passion for the supremacy of God in all things - so it's a matter of obedience... anything less is twisting the character of God to fit in an erroneous statement of who He is. In fact, most major modern mission movements were started by people who would be considered Calvinists. As such, I would imagine that some of the most generous people aren't that way because they feel like they 'have to or else...' but because of their passion for God and their desire to be obedient to Him.

Preaching, teaching, and living as a Biblical believer is not the easiest... and for one who has grown up in the SBC tradition (+Bible college, +2 SBC Seminaries), I have learned there are a few things that have to be 'undone' before they can be properly built up.
Ok, now... longest comment ever.

At 2:41 PM, December 12, 2008 , Anonymous Jaimee said...

"First, I'd love to do a series of posts on the Sabbath, but won't do that here. "

-- That would be too much fun! Expect lots of insight and experience on my side, but not a whole lot of concrete across the board answers.

"My only problem is I know very few people who give much of anything."

-- I guess my problem with this thinking is How do we know? We are not supposed to be broadcasting our giving. If it's the offering plate we gauge giving by, I totally suck. On the other hand, while I could be better (we always can be), I think I have a fairly decent grasp of giving. It might not ever be something that another church person sees though, know what I mean? I don't want my small amount of money (relatively speaking) to go to support something like a building when it could put groceries on someone's table or keep someone's electricity on. I tend to think in very tangible ways when it comes to helping people, and while I'm sure it could be argued that money for a building is helping and is tangible... I just cant seem to get my brain to go that way at the moment. I see the alternative and think, Wow, we could do so much more with this much money!

"So where do we tell them to start? I'd love some suggestions on how to teach generosity and what kind of starting place to give people. And how can we be generous when we give less that 10%?"

-- I don't think theres anything wrong with using the 10% as a suggested starting point based on principle. I do think its wrong to tell people where to put that allotment. I think there are lots of different suggestions like the water missions thing, the adopting a child thing, etc... How do you know people aren't giving 10% or more to those type of things? Just from my own experience... (here we go again!). We were told many years ago that we had no choice but to file bankruptcy. We spoke with Lutheran social services and worked with them on a budget, etc. The women was incredulous that we still wanted a line for giving. She thought we were crazy. But we knew how blessed we were to have what we had (even though we had been stupid with much of it early in our marriage) and wanted to bless others. She refused to accept our budget which included just $25 per week for groceries for a family of 4 at the time, barely anything for utilities, and nothing for clothing/shoes/etc, not even an amount for diapers/wipes for the baby. I am not ashamed to say we were not giving 10% of our income at that time. Probably more like 5%. But I know deep in my heart that there is no way we could have squeezed out another nickel to give to anyone and still been able to feed our family and pay our mortgage. So that's just an example of where less than 10% has to be acceptable. It just has to. We have to have grace with each other. I cannot believe that we are the only people who have been in such dire straits. And there are lots more people who don't have the knowledge or the means to figure out such extreme ways of budgeting, saving,etc. God truly by his own hand brought us the info, people, etc to teach us how we could make it out of that situation alive and kicking.

"So I guess my question is, what do you do with the Old Testament commands that talk about the tithe? And come to think of it, I almost would go as far as to say that when Malachi is talking about the tithe, he's not even talking command, but principle. ie: If you trust God enough to handle your money his way then you invite him into your finances."

-- I totally agree with being a biblical Christian not just a NT Christian, that phrase is much overused, imho. I definitley agree that that principle in Malachi is still in order for us today. That is HUGE. But you know we could look at other passages as well and go, well (and this is even in the NT) what about headcoverings? HAHAHA (I really dont want to get into this!) But seriously... There is a very real principle involved in that passage in Cor. One, I dare say still very much applies to us today... maybe even more so than then in lots of ways. However, do we really have to wear a rag on our heads to prove the principle? What are some more real ways today to show that we "get" that teaching? Just a thought. That's kinda how I feel about the tithe/giving principle. Obviously giving is still important... probably even more so now that Jesus has actually died for us so we can live... But is it still 10% to support the temple? Or could it be giving generously (a decided ahead of time amount, according to need and means) TO SUPPORT THE TEMPLE? The real one?

"I'd love to hear what you both think obendience's part is in the whole thing. For me it's a big part."

-- I am 100% on board with this one. I so totally think it's an obedience thing. I just think we need to be listening for that still small voice to direct us in what we need to do with our money. It's easier to say I'm going to give 10% of my income to the church every week til I die, than to be able to go, "Are you serious God? Give my money to who? For what?" It (from my experience again) requires much more obedience and thought to be ready to obey at the Spirit's calling on a day to day basis. And I think alot of people can really be touched that way as well. I know I have been surprised and humbled and elated with others' obedience different times that we found groceries on our porch for Thanksgiving, bags full of clothes for our children in just the right sizes, and free babysitting so we could eat off the dollar menu at Wendy's together (alone, childfree, in peace)! That was radical obedience! That was obedience to the law of the Spirit. That's what I want to live to do better. I want to get to where I can hear even the smallest whisper of his voice to bring him glory when someone realizes "God did this for me, sent this person for me, provided me with_____" Personal, living obedience. Heart change. Real and meaningful. Jesus-crazy.

"And wouldn't it be wise to stay away from those churches that can't be trusted with money and instead invest in those that can be trusted?"

-- That is such a loaded question. If only it were that easy! What if 90% of a church body's money could filter back out into ministry? What if we all shared with each other when anyone had a need? What if it became unnecessary to pay a church staff because the work was shared so evenly amongst the brothers and sisters that no one person had to be in charge anymore? What if the only money a church body actually needed was perhaps for minimal office type supplies and food for gatherings? Can you imagine? I can. I seriously can. I have been involved in similar settings. It works. We can live simply and support each other and help others in need and spread the gospel without overhead. It is possible. So do I have to wait til I find a church like that to be involved in? I hope not! But just because I disagree with how a church's money is used does not mean there cannot be fellowship and real intimacy there. It just means we disagree about something. It also doesn't mean that said church "cannot be trusted" with money either... Just that perhaps we have a slightly different vision ;)

Golly my posts are long!

At 2:49 PM, December 12, 2008 , Blogger Jonathan Everette said...

Great comments. I need to spend some time thinking through them. I really love the interaction. Y'all have too much time on your hands. :)

At 3:02 PM, December 12, 2008 , Blogger pat gillen said...

Let me add for Jaimee's sake that I do believe that giving faithfully requires us to give to individuals in addition to giving to the church. And when giving to either... do not attach any strings! Sure, I might think the money at the church should be spent a certain way, however I have been instructed to give as an active member of this local church - and I will do so, trusting the leadership God has placed to make wise decisions.

Hopefully those leaders have exercised wisdom and placed safeguards in place for accountability too. (Which is why I will not write checks from the church account unless someone is watching and knows where it's going...)

and Jaime... do not feel guilt for those years you were fighting to avoid bankruptcy and gave 5%. That guilt is the reason Jesus fulfilled the law, so we can find joy in grace!

At 3:04 PM, December 12, 2008 , Blogger pat gillen said...

You're right. Well, today is a good day for this. ;)

At 3:21 PM, December 12, 2008 , Blogger Jonathan Everette said...

Got to second Pat's comments about grace. Thank God we're under grace.

At 9:24 AM, December 16, 2008 , Anonymous Jaimee said...

Pat, when you said this:

"Sure, I might think the money at the church should be spent a certain way, however I have been instructed to give as an active member of this local church - and I will do so, trusting the leadership God has placed to make wise decisions."

What did you mean? Do you mean because of your job, you've been instructed... or are you referring to a particular passage of scripture...? Just curious. I'm kinda searching this out at the moment. Thanks!

At 12:23 PM, December 16, 2008 , Blogger pat gillen said...

Jaimee, no problem!

The Bible always instructs us to give, and do so cheerfully. I have yet to find a verse that says to give, then direct and demand where the money is spent. (that kind of removes the element of giving).

Example one: Practically speaking, if you gave someone a gift, would you then tell them how to use it?

Example two: The Bible tells us to give to the poor and needy - in as much that if we see someone and need in don't give, we are in a way being disobedient. Anyhow, a lot of people won't give to poor or homeless because they'll say things like "well, they'll just use the money for beer..." The problem is that we're commanded to give to the poor, not tell them what to do with it.

It could be that you give and do have a say. Being a pastor, this is true for me. But for the majority of believers, I would say when you give to God, you are also trsuting the people that He has over it. There are some congregational models (dangerous in my opinion) that would give the church body official responsibilities regarding the spending of the money. In that case, you do have the 'right'.... if that makes sense. It's all about how the church is set up.

As a sidenote, our church has a policy that we will not accept any money that has strings attached. If someone writes a check to only be used a certain way, we return it. There are some people that try to use money as a way to gain power, and we have that policy in place to keep the mission first, not money.

Does this help?

At 2:13 PM, December 16, 2008 , Anonymous Jaimee said...

OK. Yes, Pat, that does explain a lot. I am quite familiar with church politics, which is *I thought* what you were talking about, yet I didn't want to assume. I thought maybe you were referring to a particular passage or something which instructed you to give to those over individual church bodies. You are talking about your agreed upon covenanted responsibility as a church member.

I don't want to be a "string attacher" lol. But I also don't feel it's my responsibility to blindly accept whatever it is a church leader thinks my money needs to fund. I don't remember reading anywhere that I have to sign a contract with a local church body and then "love honor and obey." That's why I canceled my contracts and now give freely of myself, my time and my money.

I am concerned however for the individual church bodies. I don't think it is ideal the way things are today, but the people involved in leadership are real people and need support, both financial and otherwise. It is a real puzzle to me, how to act, what is best. I am not a very good lemming I'm afraid! Though I'm sure it would be easier if I were!


At 2:25 PM, December 16, 2008 , Anonymous Jaimee said...

Oh, hey, I just thought of this too...

In regards to the giving to the homeless thing and how that applies to giving to church or others as well...

I don't give homeless people money. Money is not really what they need most. Most of them are starving, malnourished, thirsty (for water!), cold, etc. I would rather spend the money on those things which will provide them with what they need (food, water, clothing, blankets) then to just hand them a $20, ya know?

I guess I kind of look at "church" that way too. What if a building fund and exorbitant salaries are not what a church really needs? What if they need money for outreach, missions, a food pantry, etc? I know I know, who am I to know what they need right? Well we are all in this together yeah? I guess that's why I'd rather not give to the church... I mean like cash in the offering plate. There are always so many unnecessary things to spend money on.

I think I have been to too many business meetings in my lifetime, lol. I've been tainted! Do we leave the purple carpet or do we shell out the dough for... What about the heat, do we turn it to 70 or 65... Can we really afford the street fair or do we need more money for such and such a program.... Blah. I guess I just want to make a real difference.

What if you could do the church thing without spending the money on unnecessaries? Then is it unreasonable to not want to give to those things?

I'm just trying to work through this. I really go back and forth and I honestly can see all sides of the issue. I guess this is just one of those things that doesn't really seem to come back to the Bible at all, it's more logistics? What needs to happen to make things work?

At 3:00 PM, December 16, 2008 , Blogger Jonathan Everette said...

I love watching/reading the conversation. Pat, the ball's in your court. :)

At 3:21 PM, December 16, 2008 , Blogger pat gillen said...

I appreciate your thoughts, and it does sound like you may have had some experiences with the church that weren't too positive. I am always sorry to hear that if it is indeed the case.

I will add a few thoughts that I hope to encourage you with.

First, as Jonathan stated, the concept of 'my' money is a dangerous one. We have to go into it realizing that it is ALL God's, and we are giving back only a portion in worship. Therefore, when you give, you give with no strings, because you are simply returning a portion of the money. This may sound trite, but it's true. Everything I have is a gift from God, and I am pleased to give it back.

Second, it does not require a "lemming" in order to trust your leadership. If you can't trust your leadership, it may be time to find a new church! I have heard Perry Noble share this example. If you were on a plane and an engine went out; would you prefer the paid professionals in the cockpit devise a solution, or would you prefer they go to first class with the options, choose which is best, present it to coach and take a vote? Obviously it's not a direct comparison, and while leaders (whomever they are, pastors or even presidents!) will let us down, there is no other way to move forward effectively without faith in God and trusting the leadership He has put you under. If you are ever at a church where you can't give money and trust that the one that God has called to be the under-shepherd of that flock cannot morally, ethically or spiritually handle the task - you probably need to find a new place to serve. The lemming part comes in if you just remain oblivious to these facts.
2.2 - I also realize that many churches are set up in a congregational fashion, thus putting the steering wheel in the hands of everyone... per-say. The most effective churches are the ones that have trusted leadership with accountability. I'll also add that where leaders make the biggest mistakes is not in making a decision on where the thermostat should go (for instance) but in not having the GUTS to stand up and lead... and decide what the thermostat should be set on based on his conviction as a God-called leader.

Third, I may not always agree with the way money is spent (or NOT spent) at my church, but it doesn't affect my giving or my support - because I give to God joyfully, not because I endorse a pastor or leader. Politically (if I gave) I would give to a candidate I believe in... but in this case it is God, not a person.

A gift with a string attached is not truly a gift, nor is it joyful. Does this help clarify?

Sidenote regarding the giving to homeless, etc. You are correct that we need to give much more than money. Of course I often give food (or try to) when I see someone like that in need. It's often rejected, but so goes it. Regardless, the Bible asks me to give - so I do. Maybe it will be a burger, a buck, or a shirt... but I also do these things for Jesus too. It's like when Jesus said when you give someone a cup of water in my name you do it to me.

At 4:05 PM, December 16, 2008 , Anonymous Jaimee said...

OK Pat, I gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. I believe we have perhaps come to an impasse, and I am cool with that if you are. :)

I think we have some differing opinions on church leadership and the capacity in which they have been called to serve. That is ok.

This has been an awesome conversation and I really am honored to have been part of it! You both brought some great perspectives and I have enjoyed getting to know a bit more of where you are coming from.


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